Life Support Project
From: Terry Kok
[ To Mars Society Civilization & Culture Group ] [ from Beverly Conolly
I thought of crossbreeding T carbonaria, too, but after the big mistake made a few decades ago with Africanised bees, I personally would be a little bit leery of presuming that crossbreeding with honeybees would necessarily produce the desired traits. Also worth mentioning is that T carbonaria does have a stinger; it's just too small to break human skin. I do wonder whether it might be possible to selectively breed the Aus native species to produce a bigger insect (hopefully not with a larger stinger). The reason for the smaller honey yields seems to be that the insect is very small (about the size of your average housefly) and so can't carry as much pollen and nectar to the hive. And as was mentioned previously, although honey would be a nice by-product, it's really crop pollination that's the challenge. Championing the cause of the local contender, Bev Conolly
[ To Mars Society Civilization & Culture Group ] [ from Tanstaaflz@aol.com ] In a message dated 04/13/2000 03:53:23 AM, mystul@myavista.com writes: << Can T. carbonaria be crossbred with other species? We might want to breed them with N. American or european honey bees....to see if they'll produce stingless offpsring which produce more honey...
[ to Mars Society Arctic Base TF & discussion ] [ from Terry Kok
From: Kmicheels@aol.com | Block address Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 11:37:18 EDT Subject: Re: Mars_Arct/ pins drop on Mars To: biostar_a@yahoo.com In a message dated 4/13/00 9:17:12 AM EST, biostar_a@yahoo.com writes: << It's so quiet that I can hear a pin drop on Mars! How is the sensornet research going? Has anyone seen the data/designs for the FMARS gray water system? Are these going to be posted? Even a verbal description will help. Does anyone want a copy of the digests (from #1 to #9)? I tried posting #7 and #8 to this list but they didn't show up in the mailbox. >>
Hi Guys: I admit that I have been with-holding info regarding the system...but there is a reason for this. I created a schematic of the system a week ago and gave it to the subcobntractor yesterday. His review will result in changes to my design, so I don't want to "put it on the street" until I get his input. So...be patient. For planning purpose though, I based system design on 22kg of water / person / day, with a one week supply stored in the hab for this season. You can calc. what your waste products will be from this number for 6 persons. As soon as we get the plumbing design finalized, I'll send it out. In the mean time, lets get another discussion going (Terry's right, its too quiet). How about this...In the 2001-2002 time frame we plan to deploy a green house. Its primary purpose is as an ergonomic simulator, i.e. how much time does it take to grow plants, what systems are needed, what problems occur. it has been suggested that we experiment with plant growth in Mars simulant, since you would want to know if we could do this anyway. This would impose additional layers of difficulty since we not just be growing plants, but conducting an experiment. Any thoughts, or counter arguments regarding this idea? kam
From: "Parker, Leslie"
From: "Dean Calahan, FoB" From: "Tania M. Slawecki" From: "Dean Calahan, FoB" > Yes, from K. Micheels. Dean...does this group have a site linked to the Marssociety site. If not we should have one, since you guys are one of the most active groups. > kam From: "Dean Calahan, FoB" Concentration: Food supply/Agriculture Shaun Magee - 11:54pm Mar 29, 2000 Just doing a little browsing around, and thinking about the neccessity of agriculture on Mars. One option that doesnt need actual "agro-domes" is mushroom farming. 15 weeks till harvest, with an average of 4.12 lbs./square foot. Check out www.mushroomcouncil.com/grow for a nice treatise on the subject. Obviously, hydroponics would be vital, and we've yet to get a whole lot of experience in large-scale, closed-system, hydroponic cultivation. This is just an off-the-cuff idea, and I havent researched it from the engineering and technical angles, buuuutt...... Wouldnt it be easier to avoid constructing domes (initially), and just use sealed trenches as farm areas? Dig a sloped trench, cover it with a transparent material (ie, aerogel, or whatever your going to build domes out of, or just plastic), and then seal and pressurize to requirements. Remember, I recall hearing that the plantation areas didnt have to be fully pressurized, so we avoid the dome-pop problem. Opinions? Shaun Magee University of Hawaii at Manoa David Dietzler - 03:41pm Apr 2, 2000 (1.) Livestock feed I'm sure mushrooms could make good livestock feed. Spirulina algae might make good feed also. That's about all I know. Closed system life support could always be augmented by mechanical systems like a cryogenic air scrubber to remove CO2 and other noxious gases which could then be elctrolytically,chemically and thermally decomposed to recover oxygen. Such a system won't run out of lithium hydroxide,obviously. Mushrooms don't need light and they grow in organic waste so they don't need much energy or nutrient processing. If we pressurize a cave someday there could be a big mushroom farm down there. jason fritchlee - 06:07am Apr 3, 2000 (2.) trench greenhouses I would prefer trench greenhouses over domes because of the ease of insulating them. Construct as follows: 1} Dig a wide trench 2 feet deeper than you need it (north-south orientation) 2} Lay down suporting/insulating slabs in the bottom of trench. 3} Unroll greenhouse "tube" on ground and inflate w/ CO2. 4} Spray sides of tube with self-expanding foam insulatin (the heat produced by rhe curing foam should keep it from freezing) 5} Backfill trench with regolith. 6} Install mirrored insulated shutters that would be open during the day and closed at night. After this, what you do would depend on how you plan on using the greehouse. John Creighton - 04:06pm Apr 3, 2000 (2.1) Some Suggestions Trenches should work great for most garden type of crops. We don't have to worry about shadows for short plants because there will have to be spacing between the rows anyway. (Obviously the trench should run east to west) One suggestion I would add to the trench idea is, put the mirrored blinds on the outside of the trench. The reason to do this is, in the morning and evening we can use them to reflect light into the trench. Remember surfaces are most transparent when the light hits them perpendicular. BTW thermal blinds are a great idea. I saw before on tv, thermal blinds made out of fabric. Perhaps on all types of greenhouses, we could make thermal blinds out of hemp fabric. jason fritchlee - 05:28am Apr 6, 2000 (2.1.1) Re: suggestions 1) Row planting is used in modern ag. in order to make automated planting and harvesting easier. Intensive gardening is a more efficient use of space and IMO would be a better choice for the colony greenhouses. 2) A North-South orientation would allow the shutters (which I agree should be mounted externaly) to be used more efficiently to reflect sunlight into the greenhouse like this: -/---sun------------sun----------sun----\ /___________________\_/__________________\ As you can see, by placing the reflective shutters in various positions they can capture the first and last rays of sunlight and increase the effective sunlight hitting the greenhouse during the rest of the day. 3) The easiest method of constructing the shutters would be by laying out a Mylar sheet the size on the proposed shutter within a framework of bamboo. Spray on a layer of expanding foam and quickly lay a latice of split bamboo on it before the foam finishes rising and follow with another layer of foam. John Creighton - 04:50pm Apr 6, 2000 (2.1.1.1) Comments and Questions With shutters constructed like this. The greenhouse should be very well insulated. As an obvious addition we could have a rubber seal that the shutters can clamp down upon at night. This should go a long way to making nighttime thermal losses minimal. Can you describe the dimensions of the bamboo lattice. I could see a bamboo lattice being labor intensive. Also were you thinking of going with a square lattice? jason fritchlee - 08:54pm Apr 6, 2000 (2.1.1.1.1) Answers I like the rubber seal idea. Dont know what you mean by "dimensions" but I believe that square lattice with 6" spacing would do the trick. John Creighton - 11:10am Apr 8, 2000 (2.1.1.1.1.1) Defining the Lattice Is it still called a square lattice in three dimensions? Anyway you got the idea of what I mean by dimension. But clearly we can't actually build a lattice. We can only guild a small piece of a lattice. Therefore to completely define the lattice I also need to know the number of lattice points in three directions. I assume that the Mylar will be in a square lattice plane. I would also guess that you would want to make the structure about three lattice points think. jason fritchlee - 06:09pm Apr 8, 2000 (2.1.1.1.1.1.1) lattice The lattice that I am refering to would be made from split sections of bamboo and would look like the 4'x6' lattice sections available in any home improvement store. As far as the size of the lattice sections, a "modular" lattice section of latice would be about 6'x6' and would fit in a similarly sized bamboo frame to form the shutters. Extra rigidity could be provided by fastening full bamboo segments to the "back" of the lattice. John Creighton - 04:57pm Apr 6, 2000 (2.1.1.2) Mylar Mylar? I know its inexpensive on earth. I am not sure how it is made though. I know it is 90% reflective so it should made a good mirror. If we have to import the reflective material how about alumized Mylar. I think it can be rolled into thin sheets. I wonder if it could be easily be attached to a sheet of canvas. I am also curious if their would be any problems with thermal expansion when trying to make a (hemp canvas) (bamboo) (alumized mylar) mirror. jason fritchlee - 09:04pm Apr 6, 2000 (2.1.1.2.1) Mylar I doubt that we could make it on Mars for some time, but its light weight and the fact that it is used in spacecraft construction would make its import a minimal inconvinience. If the colony vessels are constructed like Zubrins "tuna cans" then 3 mylar sheets, each wrapped 8 times around as insulation would bring a lot of mylar to Mars. As far as attachment to canvas, aluminized canvas tarps are fairly common and not too expensive.Thermal expansion could definitely be a killer we need to test this. John Creighton - 04:39pm Apr 6, 2000 (2.2) Foam Questions Can you be more specific with you description of the self expanding insulating foam. I am not familiar with this stuff. Do you have a link where I can find information on it. Can we easily make it on mars? [ To Mars Society Civilization & Culture Group ] [ from Jimbro6543@aol.com ] The isolated environment of Mars where we can subject an area to near vacuum and kill all insects including eggs when we want to. This is one of the reasons I have been suggesting a number of modest size agriculture units. If no one else does these cross breeds we should, but with great care, and the use of air locks. We might even be able to breed bees that have small smooth stingers and be able to fight off other bees, and not die like all but the queen does now, while unable to harm people. Settling Mars this decade, Jim Brown In a message dated 4/13/00 16:24:57 Pacific Daylight Time, beverly_conolly@scholastic.com.au writes: > I thought of crossbreeding T carbonaria, too, but after the big mistake made a few decades ago with Africanised bees, I personally would be a little bit leery of presuming that crossbreeding with honeybees would necessarily produce the desired traits. Also worth mentioning is that T carbonaria does have a stinger; it's just too small to break human skin. I do wonder whether it might be possible to selectively breed the Aus native species to produce a bigger insect (hopefully not with a larger stinger). The reason for the smaller honey yields seems to be that the insect is very small (about the size of your average housefly) and so can't carry as much pollen and nectar to the hive. And as was mentioned previously, although honey would be a nice by-product, it's really crop pollination that's the challenge. Championing the cause of the local contender, Bev Conolly [ To Mars Society Civilization & Culture Group ] [ from James McEnanly [ from James McEnanly Settling Mars this decade, Jim Brown --- Kmicheels@aol.com wrote: > Hi Guys: > I admit that I have been with-holding info regarding the system...but there is a reason for this. I created a schematic of the system a week ago and gave it to the subcobntractor yesterday. His review will result in changes to my design, so I don't want to "put it on the street" until I get his input. So...be patient. For planning purpose though, I based system design on 22kg of water / person / day, with a one week supply stored in the hab for this season. You can calc. what your waste products > will be from this number for 6 persons. > As soon as we get the plumbing design finalized, I'll send it out. > In the mean time, lets get another discussion going (Terry's right, its too quiet). How about this...In the 2001-2002 time frame we plan to deploy a green house. Its primary purpose is as an ergonomic simulator, i.e. how much time does it take to grow plants, what systems are needed, what problems occur. it has been suggested that we experiment with plant growth in Mars simulant, since you would want to know if we could do this anyway. This would impose additional layers of difficulty since we not just be growing plants, but conducting an experiment. Any thoughts, or counter arguments regarding this idea? > kam Do you mean that, in 2001-2002 the rules regarding the use of Devon Island will be relaxed so that we can actually build a greenhouse which doesn't have to be shut down for 9 months of the year? Am I hearing that the hab crew might be able to stay for a full year or more so we can go through a complete cycle? If not, then I am not too sure that FMARS/Devon is the CELSS testbed that we need. Please elaborate. As far as "holding back" the info/design. I would have been much better (in my opinion) to let this group go through your preliminary designs BEFORE you sent them to the subcontractor. Is this subcontractor a specialist in bioregenerative life support? I hope so. There are many small details which, if they are specialists, they MIGHT suggest to you. If they aren't they probably will miss the boat. I'm serious. Withholding info from the life support design team is not a good idea, even if that info is preliminary. Many brains working together can solve problems BEFORE they occur. I am still looking forward to seeing what they say and a diagram and/or written description. PS - You may request a copy of the article I mentioned a few days ago by sending a request for the article to biostar_a@yahoo.com - Terry R. Kok at biostar_a@yahoo.com [ to Mars Society Arctic Base TF & discussion ] [ from Kmicheels@aol.com ] Hi Terry... The greenhouse will only be functional when the hab is in use. It is not intended as closed environment test bed. It will be an ergonomic simulator only. The plumbing I am specing for this year is not bioregenerative. kam [ to Mars Society Arctic Base TF & discussion ] [ from KokhMMM@aol.com ] --- Kmicheels@aol.com wrote: << it has been suggested that we experiment with plant growth in Mars simulant >> I personally think that in the double abscence of a Lunar Prospector type geochemical map of Mars, and of even a single soil sample, that talk of a Mars simulant -- and I have been hearing of that for years -- is very much a case of garbage in, garbage out. There is, IMHO, no such thing as a Mars "simulant" -- the only thing ANY soil concoction would possibly simulate is guesswork based on very incomplete evidence. And, unfortunately, in the light of MPL, this situation will probably be unchanged for some time. At least NASA feels confident enough about Mars Orbiters and we ought to be pressing for one that is properly equiped to do a geochemical map.We also ought to see if we can get some brainstorming going about the possibility of orbital detection of permafrost. We could test-fly any proposed instruments around Earth where we already have abundant "ground truth" to figure out how to calibrate and interpret what the orbiter is seeing when it flies over known permafrost areas. It is likely, of course, that Mars' crust is not much different in elemental composition from both the Earth's and the Moon's. If we took lunar simulant and weathered it in some accelerated fashion by exposure to both CO2 and water, I guess that would be something. Other than that, I don't see what we've got to go on. Peter [ to Mars Society Arctic Base TF & discussion ] [ from Kmicheels@aol.com ] In a message dated 4/17/00 10:01:02 PM EST, KokhMMM@aol.com writes: << There is, IMHO, no such thing as a Mars "simulant" -- the only thing ANY so __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/