Life Support Project
From: Terry Kok
In a fully operational CELSS (made for 100% life support) in permanent or long term operation, given enough space, worms could be grown (easily enough) to feed to fish. In a smaller system aquaculture is not feasable.
On Mars a one piece expandable foam filled inflatable greenhouse of whatever shape, packed for shipment in a 55 gallon drum (part of the system), including integrated plants beds, water/waste channels, and air systems is probably the best way to go. It wouldn't be hard to design or contruct one for FARS but I'm not sure folks are ready for such a high level of integration between systems.
Also - all that has been requested is a grey water system for FARS. I'm not sure what is planned for the waste solids or stale habitat air or whether or not the output from the requested grey water system is supposed to be dumped on the ground or whether it should be recycled back into the hab. As a CELSS ecotechnician and designer/engineer (with experience) I still think that we should not limit ourselves to a mere grey water system. Why? Because it WORKS BETTER to do the whole thing all once. Remember: ecosystems are not made of discrete disconnected modules. They are WHOLE SYSTEMS. Grey water processing is an automatic BYPRODUCT of a functioning CELSS just as exhaust is a byproduct of an internal combustion engine. Why not go all the way and recycle everything? The equipment is no more complex or expensive. The risk is about the same and we end up with clean air, pure water, and fresh food instead of just water. INTEGRATION OF FUNCTIONS IS THE KEY TO CELSS. Each part works best when closely coupled to each other part. Very few mechanical devices are needed (a few fans, a tesla coil to fix nitrogen, lights, and a pressure pump). All the rest is gravity feed (no this won't work in microgravity). The biology does the conversions. All we have to do is make the containment vessel, plant it, harvest the food, and make sure we keep putting our wastes in the other end.
I am currently in a deep design phase on such a CELSS which I am going to construct here on Lothlorien (http://www.elflore.org) in 2001. It will probably be sized for 1-2 people (depending on my capital resources), will be sealed from the outside atmosphere, and will clearly demonstrate what I'm speaking about above. This sort of module could be cloned for redundancy and to handle any number of inhabitants.
> Peter: >>> Sources of vitamin B-12 >>>>> http://www.cyberdiet.com/foodfact/vitmins/vitb12.html >>> this list mentions various meats and dairy products >>> only, and says B-12 is >>> found in animal products "almost exclusively". I >>> will ask one of my avid >>> Vegan friends and see what she recommends as a >>> vegetable source. Ditto on >>> vitamin D. (I have left a detailed message on her >>> voice mail.) >> Dean: > I have heard that it is actually parasitic/symbiotic bacteria that produce > the B-12; if that's true and we simply culture that, that may free us from > some constraints!
According to:
http://www.mit.edu/afs/athena/user/m/j/mjacknis/vsg/INFO/FAQs/FAQ_Veggie
See the section titled "WHAT IS NUTRITIONAL YEAST? / WHICH ONES PROVIDE B12?"
There is a yeast that is high in B12. Source and other info are provided.
Regards, Gary Fisher
Could someone (or more) search out specific info on the growing of nutritional yeast and post this data to the sig? - Terry at biostar_a@yahoo.com
More Comments:
<< If you're seperating urine/feces, you might think you'd need U(f), U(m) and F(f, m). However, if (f) can learn how to pee standing up (see http://www.restrooms.org/standing.html), then you could perhaps reduce the mass/volume and simply have U(f, m) and F(f, m). :):):) - of course, we might have to build large 0.38g centrifuges on the Moon to truly verify some of the engineering aspects... >>
For now we are going to use a marine toilet. So urine and feces will be combined in a black stream. Shower and lavs will be the gray stream. I am designing the hab plumbing so there will be separate discharges for each. For now, will will simply pump from those points. Later we will connect your systems to them.
How high will the hab waste outlets (black and grey) be from the ground? - Terry at biostar_a@yahoo.com
3" pipes do not clog. 1/2" pipes clog. So do mechanical filters. Biofilters are self-cleaning (if designed right). Use gravity. Only one 4.5 amp pump (to pressurise the clean water system) is used in BIOSTAR-A. By the way, ARE WE DESIGNING IN METRIC OR WHAT? This needs to be set in stone at the beginning. Witness the results of confusion in the last 2 robotic missions to Mars. - Terry at biostar_a@yahoo.com
Terry,
Agree on LEDs for the main agriculture areas. I have seen the setups built at the University of Wisconsin. But we will also be having plants everywhere, in homes, in hallways, etc. and they can take advantage of channelled sunshine as well.
My main conern is that we "forever" abandon the quest of centralized "solutions" for a "biosphere" and adopt what I have called "modular biospherics" in which we tackle each problem, e.g. toilet wastes, at its source. For example, indoor graywater systems using plants in every habitat, office, school, or whatever - _wherever_ there is a toilet. This allows us to minimize the residual recycling problems that have to be taken care of community wide. This philosophy also allows the settlement or outpost to grow naturally and the biosphere to grow with it, module by module. Obviously your halophytes need to be incorporated into any such graywater planter system (such as Wolverton's).
On plastics. I would like us to use materials which we can produce locally on Mars. While the elements of which plastics are synthesized are all present on Mars, the traditional petrochemical feedstocks from which they are synthesized are not. I would like to see much, much, more experimentation with glass-glass composites and with ways to fabricte them, so that they could come online as a substitute material we could manufacture locally. Sofar, such composites are only a laboratory item. They have so much promise for the Moon, Mars, AND Earth that if I were to win the Powerball Lottery (gees, I guess first I have to buy a ticket!) glass-glass composites would be number one on my list as an investment item. Obviously, this is beyond the scope of our task force and we need to encourage the startup of another task force looking into made on Mars materials.
On photo-periodicity - in LRS's LUNAX inititative, we tried to get some research going in this area with high school science teachers but they seemed to be only interested in the fad aspect and would run experiments but not report back the results. This was in connection with a lunar application where the goal was to find out what lighting patterns with the least lighting energy inputs would be needed to allow plants to survive the long nightspans and go on to harvest. BTW, the Russians discovered that if you just refrigerate the plants in the dark for two weeks and then recommence normal dayspan growing, it works just fine. But yes, every plant species will have different requirements.
Heating - on the Moon, it is expected that ordinary life activities will produce a surplus of heat beyond the capacity of the surrounding regolith (-4 degrees Fahrenheit, -20 Celsius) to carry away. On Mars, we can expect the soil to average 50 degrees colder (F or C?). The unknown factor on Mars is the moisture content (permafrost) which might make Martian soil more conductive - this could vary greatly from location to location.
Excess waste heat from manufacturing activities should be available. This suggests that a side-by-side partnership of agricultural and manufacturing activities might be something to look into by outpost and settlement planners.
Vitamin D: for the purposes of morale, I am all for channelling in available sunlight into the habitat areas. By use of tints and filters we can prevent an excess of thermal inputs if that would be a problem. Many dismiss sunshine on Mars because insolation per square meter is only half what it is on Earth. That IS STILL quite a bit. On Earth, with clouds, haze and all, we seldom get full force sunshine. I see no problem here at all. It is up to the architects to provide sunlight. Even though we live underground or cover ourselves with 2-4 meters of regolith, we can channel the sunlight in via heliostats and fiber optic bundles to create both pools of light, and, via various channelling devices like light tubes, accent and task lighting. Supplementary planters can be placed to take advantage of this.
Sources of vitamin B-12 http://www.cyberdiet.com/foodfact/vitmins/vitb12.html this list mentions various meats and dairy products only, and says B-12 is found in animal products "almost exclusively". I will ask one of my avid Vegan friends and see what she recommends as a vegetable source. Ditto on vitamin D. (I have left a detailed message on her voice mail.)
Toilets - as to gasses, remember that composting biomass will also produce them, and they (especially methane, a Mars-friendly fuel) can be put to work. I would prefer we tackle that problem head on with the attitude that this is a disguised asset, not a monkeywrench. On urine, unfortunately, while we frequently "just" urinate, whenever we defacate, we urinate also. So your plumbing solution must include a unisex seated solution as well as a male standing one. But in general, I am 100% behind separate plumbing drains for separate problems. Furthermore, urea is a high potential feedstock for synthetics like urethane foams and polyurethanes so we will give our infant industrial complex a one-up if we "mine" it from the urine stream. Our cloacal one-hole-fits-all solution to toilet wastes, kitchen wastes, sink & shower wastes, garden drainage, etc. is absurd. The cloacal system was a big advance in 2500 B.C. when it was invented in Mohenjo-Daro in the Indus River valley, and sadly, we have been stuck there ever since. If Modular biospherics is to work, then multi-treme (instead of monotreme one hole cloacal) plumbing must be pursued religiously. The plumbers won't mind - more work and fatter paychecks for them. We'll need color-coded lines to keep everything straight.
Terry, I wholeheartedly agree with your overall philosophy and approach. And I agree on the importance of all this. Without this, we may explore Mars but we will never establish a permanent outpost, let alone settle. We need more that rocket science. For Mars we need a productive synergy between ag-science and toilet science as well.
Feel free to repost this to the group.
Peter Kokh
CELSS INPUTS
HUMAN BODY: feces, urine, farts, belches, vomit, snot, spit/saliva, phlegm, sweat, tears, earwax, milk, sperm/semen, smegma, menstrual blood, blood, pus, nail clippings, hair, dead skin, water vapor, CO2, trace gasses, heat, medicine residues, and (if someone dies) dead bodies and body parts
PLANTS: unused biomass, garbage, plant oils, O2, CO2, ethylene and other trace gasses, water vapor
MATERIALS & PROCESSES: outgassings (solvents/trace gasses), oils, soaps, worn out clothing (natural fibers/dyes only), packing materials (should be biodegradable), laundry water, assorted chemicals (from science experiments)
ESTIMATED GROW SPACE REQUIRED PER PERSON (may be stacked into multiple levels)
14 m2 - Gitalson 56 m2 - Bios3 20-30 m2 - Cullingford & Schwatekopf 13-50 m2 - Bugsbee & Salisbury 56.9 m2 - Oleson & Olson 8-20 m2 - MacElroy & Averner 15-20 m2 - Eckhart 24 m2 - Hoff 15 m2 - Vasilyew
average of the above: 26.3 m2 (283 sq. ft. = 16.82' x 16.82')
Terry and Peter: Yo! Mars Gumbo, boys! See $0.02 below.
Peter: >> and go on to harvest. BTW, the Russians discovered >> that if you just >> refrigerate the plants in the dark for two weeks and >> then recommence normal >> dayspan growing, it works just fine. But yes, every
Dean: This is just how they keep tree seedlings preserved until ready to plant in tree farms (at least at the likes of Weyerheueser and Plum Creek etc.) - they last for months this way. = = = = =
Peter: >> Sources of vitamin B-12 >>> http://www.cyberdiet.com/foodfact/vitmins/vitb12.html >> this list mentions various meats and dairy products >> only, and says B-12 is >> found in animal products "almost exclusively". I >> will ask one of my avid >> Vegan friends and see what she recommends as a >> vegetable source. Ditto on >> vitamin D. (I have left a detailed message on her >> voice mail.)
Dean: I have heard that it is actually parasitic/symbiotic bacteria that produce the B-12; if that's true and we simply culture that, that may free us from some constraints! = = = = =
Peter: >> urinate also. So your >> plumbing solution must include a unisex seated >> solution as well as a male >> standing one. But in general, I am 100% behind >> separate plumbing drains for
Dean: If you're seperating urine/feces, you might think you'd need U(f), U(m) and F(f, m). However, if (f) can learn how to pee standing up (see http://www.restrooms.org/standing.html), then you could perhaps reduce the mass/volume and simply have U(f, m) and F(f, m). :):):) - of course, we might have to build large 0.38g centrifuges on the Moon to truly verify some of the engineering aspects... = = = = =
Peter: >> separate problems. Furthermore, urea is a high >> potential feedstock for >> synthetics like urethane foams and polyurethanes so >> we will give our infant >> industrial complex a one-up if we "mine" it from the
Dean: Discovery Science: Take "recalcitrant" material, and subject it to Mars surface conditions (temperature, pressure, atmos composition, UV/cosmic radiation).
Urea from urine is NITROGEN which, on Mars, will be precious. I'm not too sure about the wisdom of tasking the NITROGEN out of our closed ecosystem to make plastics. I think the plants would suffer. Also: In the CELSS we are going to have a difficult time fixing NITROGEN to keep it from going to a gaseous state. A tesla coil can be used to precipitate atmospheric NITROGEN. - Terry at biostar_a@yahoo.com
[ to Mars Society Arctic Base TF & discussion ] [ from Kmicheels@aol.com ] [ see end of message to unsubscribe ]
In a message dated 3/22/00 12:33:16 PM EST, biostar_a@yahoo.com writes:
<< 1) What is/are the MARS electric source(s)?>>
A 10kw diesel generator
<<2) electric: AC or DC or both?>>
Both.
<<3) electric: at what voltage?>>
110/125V, 60 Hz
<<4) How much waste heat will the Habitat generate?>>
Won't know until we have finalize the design...and we are fast tracking that now. But, please remember, this hab is a lab, and must be able to receive a wide array of systems that will effect heat production. We will need to pick a worst case load and go with it.
<<5) Will there be any solvents/chemicals (from science experiments) in the gray/black water stream?>>
Yes. But don't know all of them. If someone wants to contact some university geo/bio types and see what the worst case chem input is,. that would be very helpful.
<<6) How high will the hab waste outlets (black and grey) be from the ground? >>
I think I answered this one by saying I don't know. But, if pushed, I'll give you something... call it 1.5m
kam
[ to Mars Society Arctic Base TF & discussion ] [ from Curtis Snow
At 08:56 -0800 2000.03.22, Terry Kok wrote:
>>>> Terry Mentions: >>>>> NITROGEN to keep it from going to a gaseous >> state. >>>> A >>>>> tesla coil can be used to precipitate >> atmospheric >>>>> NITROGEN. [snip] >>>>>> Dean asks: >>>> 1. Given the CraterNet comms system... [snip]
obviously there`s a conversation somewhere that we`re only getting part of
>If Faraday cages won't work there must be something >else available to provide shielding...not talking about >a big spark, something more closely resembling...
one could make use of the difference in the signals involved
signal processing like this is done "regularly" is certain areas, particularly military environments
it requires a certain amount of proce$$ing power and known circuit technology
not immediately knowing a lot about these particular signals I`d hesitate to get any further in to it here and now (though I can think of two or three ways it could be done off hand)
there is no reason to **assume** that this type discharge will automatically screw things up in the electromagnetic arena
(consider the processing power that might be available and what military folks might have already done as a design perspective)
>the current should go to ground with the CELSS >atmosphere passing between the plates (a kind of >electrostatic precipitator - common air cleaner).
designed for a certain amount of flow etc (*roughly* how big would this volume need to be ?)
if this was integrated into the hab then one could shield the enclosure containing the discharge area and then tie the shielding to "system ground"
>Anyone have a solution? This is not needed on a gray >water system but...
one is certainy feasible give current knowledge and technology
"...the art of life is more like navigation than warfare..." - Alan Watts
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:26:07 -0800 To: Terry Kok
Add Addresses
>Roughly speaking, if we were supplying life support >for a crew of 6 we would be moving somewhere around >500 cubic inches per minute from the hab to the CELSS >and back. This is a BALL PARK figure.
how much "per human life form" ? (is this including overhead (total number) for supporting the human or just the human`s direct needs ?)
ok...given the technology being discussed for electrostatic precipitation in this situation
knowing what you know, how big a box would be need to contain the discharge area so as to isolate it from the outside "environment" ?
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:34:45 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Kok
Add Addresses
To do a truly accurate calculation of atmospheric exchange between the CELSS and the HAB we would have to know the atmospheric volume (free space) of the HAB. Then we could calculate the air exchange rate (in volume/time) to achieve a suitable turnover rate of the HAB air. This is not my specialty! What I can offer are some possibly useful weight figures (people requirements as calculated for the currently under contruction Space Station):
CO2: 1.00 (out breathing) H2O: 2.28 (respiration and perspiration) H2O: 1.11 (evaporated H2O - food prep, hygiene, clothes washing, and dish water) TOTAL: 4.39 kg/person/day 6 people = 26.34 kg/crew/day
What we're aiming for is a good exchange rate short of creating wind in the HAB. The electrostatic precipitator would only need to extract atmospheric nitrogen if a loss of nitrogen was detected in the water stream and/or the plants showed nitrogen deficiencies. Then we would need to turn it on. We might be able to prevent the loss of nitrogen to the atmosphere by growing enough legumes or other plants which promote the growth of nitrogen fixing bacteria. On the other hand, an electrostatic precipitator is, in my opinion, a useful back-up as well as an excellent air cleaner.
Terry R. Kok - Starlight Technology biostar_a@yahoo.com
<< To do a truly accurate calculation of atmospheric exchange between the CELSS and the HAB we would have to know the atmospheric volume (free space) of the HAB >>
331m^3 gross interior volume
__________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com