Life Support Project
From: Terry Kok
[ to Mars Society Arctic Base TF & discussion ] [ from "Dean Calahan, FoB"
It seems to me, that, instead of using a tesla coil, you could use microelectronics/microfluidics.
Etch tiny channels in silicon (carefully designed by experienced microfluidicists, of which there seems to be an ever greater number!*), and use digitally created currents & frequencies to power the chemical changes. Might even be able to do a micromechanical pumping system too! If we made the inlets smaller than the 40 micron dust of Mars, the dust wouldn't actually be able to get into the system. Since it's all silicon anyway, throw in some photovoltaics, and you've got a self contained solid-state nitrogen precipitator.
BTW, does anybody know what chemical form the nitrogen preciptates in? Gasous oxides (not exactly a precipitate, though easily separable!)? If we could get Nitric Acid out of the system, that's pretty far up on the acid food chain, superseded only by Sulfuric in the mineral acids. That might be able to drive various other chemical reactions, with the nitrate waste being then used to replace the N2 lost by the biosystems.
*Or not. Seems to be a project doable by a rich amateur with a fab.
[ to Mars Society Arctic Base TF & discussion ] [ from "Dean Calahan, FoB"
Here are a few links I turned up, related to Vitamin B-12 and yeast. Some have references to "the literature". The first one is missing a few graphics, but is otherwise really great.
http://www.ohly.de/sommer.htm (excellent link!)
http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm#reliable http://www.vegsource.com/attwood/vitB-12.htm http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-7a.shtml
[ to Mars Society Arctic Base TF & discussion ] [ from Terry Kok
--- "Dean Calahan, FoB"
Oh my gosh! Does this mean I'm "sp-e-c-i-a-l"?]
and perhaps would benefit from more > frequent communications amongst > ourselves. Dave made sort of a stab in this > direction a few weeks ago, but > it kind of sputtered out. I hold myself partially > responsible, due to the > confusing mailing list thing. Anyway. Even a weekly > or bi-weekly > teleconference or web chat would be great. In fact a > web chat has the > advantage of being self-documenting.
Sounds great to me. Just give me notice and tell me how to do it. >> Duh, I know everybody is busy. Well, except me*.
I have the time too ... As far as I see it, the work we are doing together means more than life support for Mars. It means life support on Earth as well. The weather has been decidedly strange around here and in many more places on this planet. I want a backyard CELSS which is not subject to climate change.
Thanks for the research on YEAST/B12. Good info.
On the electrostatic precipitation of nitrogen: Where might I find (or could you find) info on microfluidics? Is this operational technology? Also: I'll try to find out what chemical form nitrogen precipitates. I know it takes high voltage (low amps) to do the trick. I'm interested in how the microfluidics might achieve this.
Terry R. Kok - Starlight Technology biostar_a@yahoo.com
[ to Mars Society Arctic Base TF & discussion ] [ from "Dean Calahan, FoB"
Vaughn - great info! Hope you don't mind my publicizing your great comments: > I'm pretty much just a listener on this SIG but when it was mentioned that > Tesla coils precipitated nitrogen I went out and did a web search. Lots on > Tesla coils... of course but this excerpt seemed relevant: >> "Sparks and arcs also produce nitrogen oxides which can also be hard on lung > tissue. Nitrogen oxides can be changed to other nitrogen oxides when mixed > with ozone and enough heat or ultraviolet. The worst one is nitrogen > pentoxide (N2O5) which combines with any moisture to form nitric acid. Some > other ther nitrogen oxides form acid solutions in contact with moisture to a > lesser extent. The most obvious nitrogen oxide is nitrogen dioxide, which is > to some extent corrosive to lung tissue and maybe rubber objects." > Dean Calahan comments: I've got to do some searching on this, but I remember talking to a friend of mine who said you could now get gallium nitride UV laser diodes. Maybe you wouldn't even need microfluidics. Just pass a nitrogen/oxygen mixture through a chamber that you're beaming UV into, and you get ozone from the oxygen, and drive the N2O5 reaction. React that with water, and you have nitric acid! Top of the nitrate food chain, as it were. N2O5 looks like a pretty good oxidizing agent; wonder what kind of fittings you'd need.
> Likewise, since NOx production by electrical discharge is essentially a high > temperature process production in a MEM type device seems unlikely (unless > one considers the MEM a consumable?) > Maybe you wouldn't have the MEM stuff right at the point where the high temp stuff is going on. Besides, a lot of the fluid you'd be pumping around is refrigerant!
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 08:37:08 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Kok
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Let's see the proposed preliminary design for the gray water system for the Flashline Station! When and where might this design be available? Is the design set up for complete recycling/reuse of the water or is this aiming at producing a product clean enough to be dumped into the local environment? If the latter, then how will the Flashline Station be resupplied and does this constitute a "Mars analog"?
Is there anyone on this list who has experience with creating a computer sensor net so we can monitor and control a CELSS? Contact me please: biostar_a@yahoo.com ...
The nitrogen precipation research continues. Remember, in a properly designed CELSS the air exchange interface between the HAB and the CELSS is such that NOTHING TOXIC will reach the HAB. All we need is an emergency nitrogen precipitator which will RECOVER any nitrogen "lost" to the CELSS atmosphere through denitrification. I think it is great that we might ALSO extract nitrogen and nitrogen compounds from the Mars atmosphere (for various purposes) but I think we need to focus most our attention on first not losing what we already have.
- Terry R. Kok at biostar_a@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:15:57 -0800 (PST) From: Terry Kok
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--- Kmicheels@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/27/00 11:51:18 AM EST, > biostar_a@yahoo.com writes: >><< Let's see the proposed preliminary design for the > gray > water system for the Flashline Station! When and > where > might this design be available?>>>> As you know we are "fast tracking" this project, so > parts of it are being > designed as the hab is fabricated.
Gee, I thought I was one of the life support system designers. If I am I should be seeing some preliminary plans from whomever is actually designing this so I can add my professional 2 cents to the project.
As promised > during the telecon 2 weeks > ago, I will provide a spread sheet with water use > and waste production data > soon (in a couple weeks).
I didn't see the posting about the telcom until after the fact so I didn't know this. I'm looking forward to seeing the data so I know what the team is designing for.
We are now in the bidding > process for the systems, > and will not release a finalized design until we > have agreed to a cost.
I haven't seen anything posted about bidding. Are these open or closed bids? Who is bidding? Remember the posting I made about a month ago where you said you would send me the info when bidding began? I haven't received a thing. That's a shame. I can usually get (or build) equipment for far less than most commercial sources (having been in the business for over 10 years). Besides, if the design is not yet finalized, what could you be bidding on? How can you agree on a cost before there is a design? >><
Where are you going to pump it to?
A connection will be provided at the exterior > of the hab for future > connection of the resulting test module. We are not > attempting to actually > close the enviromental loop here, as this is an > operational simulator. If we > end up closing some part of it and test new systems > thats even better, but > not required.
> kam
A closed loop may not be required at the Flashline Station but it is truly a wasted opportunity if we don't test real equipment which will lead to that which we will use on Mars. As a simulator, we should be simulating! That goes for the life support as well as the hab. In plenty of previous postings I have stated that a fully operational CELSS both WORKS BETTER than a simple gray water system and is an ACTUAL ANALOG, not an embarassment. A gray water system is easy - no big deal. I know several commercial companies which produce great models or we could easily enough build our own for about $500 tops. But, that would be FAR SHORT of the goal of providing the 100% recycling we will need on Mars (and should have on Earth as well). By the way, if you plan to use a Sealand brand marine toilet, it has been my experience that they lose their seal within a few months of regular use and begin to stink. I hope you are choosing a better model or get replacement seals!
On the fast track (2000) I can see a simple gray water system. On the longer track (2001 or 2002) I can see a CELSS. I see no reasonable need to fall short of these goals unless we want to be laughed at by the International life support community of which I am a part. If we're not shooting for a CELSS I'm not sure why I'm posting so much CELSS related info on the Arctic-sig. What does everyone else think? Speak up please!
Terry Ryan Kok - Starlight Technology biostar_a@yahoo.com 812-275-0694
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